What is completely bizarre to me is the BINARY concept of heaven and hell. No one is ALL good or all bad. Hopefully, most of us are growing in goodness throughout our lives as we understand more about other people and our world.
But then, one day, you must be sent one direction or the other? There are some infamous villains who might be easy to judge but what about regular people? Will I go to hell for stealing a cassette tape from Walmart when I was in 6th grade? How about for physically fighting with my younger brother? Do only adult transgressions count? Should I worry about spreading a little gossip or is that heaven-permissible? What if the gossip was about a priest?
What if our earthly justice system specified that any and all crimes would be punished with life in prison? Binary on earth as it is in heaven?
How would a supreme being grant us complicated lives only to reduce us to a single category of innocent or guilty at death? Please don’t give me some purgatory bullshit as a response. If the afterlife is infinite, why would a pit stop on the way to infinity be relevant?
It’s just a dumb idea, upon which entire civilizations have apparently been founded!
I can't say who deserves what. But torment for ETERNITY? A billion years and it's gotten no shorter?
I suppose, though, my problem is as much the WHY as the what. They're not being tormented, allegedly, for their sins. The thing that sends you to Hell, so they say, is a lack of "faith," a failure to subscribe to their religion. You can have committed any number of awful sins, but so long as you get right with their religion (confess with thy mouth, &ct.) you get a pass.
Interesting thoughts. It doesn’t even begin to open the whole “bloody sacrifice for your sins” concept. How barbaric and unnecessary that whole thing is.
I read your work. I'm not interested in an irrelevant ramble through a "not all theists" argument. My essay was clearly addressed at a particular position and model that you don't hold.
I occurred to me when I was about 14 years old, that if there was was an omniscient, omnipotent Supreme Being watching over us, who had decided to create us, that said Being would be well aware of the situation He or She had placed us in, and being omniscient, would also be well aware of the limits of our ability to to elevate ourselves to any higher level of awareness. It seemed to me that to intentionally construct such a scenario on this lovely planet, and to expect the subjects of this experiment to somehow redeem themselves by worshiping a completely absent and unknown "Creator" would be laughable at best. All of the civilizations on this dirtball in space have created their own Creators, most of whom have been vengeful, murderous, and unassailable bullies. I am not saying that it's impossible that a Creator exists, I am only saying that if said Creator exists, they cannot reasonably expect very much from their creation.
No wonder human beings are such a mess. When the very foundation of your belief system is that the ultimate good guy is ok with torture, humiliation, and demands condescending servitude, then I think it is safe to say that the resulting human behavior will be twisted beyond recognition from the real meaning of peace and love. I am grateful to have been raised an atheist. I was never forced to believe the nonsense as a kid, so today it is easy for me to see the insanity it produces. Most folks have crippling cognitive dissonance over it all.
Human beings are human beings.. the good, the bad and the ugly, no matter what their belief system. Good people will be good and bad will be bad. Always has been that way and I will bet it always will be that way in the human family.
"...many Christian fundamentalists and religious authoritarians" have no clue about whether or not what they believe is based on a shred of evidence. It's come mostly from an emotional source, not a rational one. I hesitate to use the word "stupid" but Bonhoeffer did not:
"Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one's prejudgment simply need not be believed
- in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical - and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous."
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison
Whenever you say "God didn't intend..." you are going to have to let go of omnipotence, omniscience, or benevolence. If your God created all this, and the rules it operates by, and knew every result in advance, then your God bears all moral responsibility if you would say that your God can do anything He wishes to do by a mere act of will. There's no getting around this problem, and you look disingenuous when you try.
What is completely bizarre to me is the BINARY concept of heaven and hell. No one is ALL good or all bad. Hopefully, most of us are growing in goodness throughout our lives as we understand more about other people and our world.
But then, one day, you must be sent one direction or the other? There are some infamous villains who might be easy to judge but what about regular people? Will I go to hell for stealing a cassette tape from Walmart when I was in 6th grade? How about for physically fighting with my younger brother? Do only adult transgressions count? Should I worry about spreading a little gossip or is that heaven-permissible? What if the gossip was about a priest?
What if our earthly justice system specified that any and all crimes would be punished with life in prison? Binary on earth as it is in heaven?
How would a supreme being grant us complicated lives only to reduce us to a single category of innocent or guilty at death? Please don’t give me some purgatory bullshit as a response. If the afterlife is infinite, why would a pit stop on the way to infinity be relevant?
It’s just a dumb idea, upon which entire civilizations have apparently been founded!
Wow! I’ve never thought about hell in this way before. It’s a unique perspective.
Yes, unfortunate and sad.
But… certainly you must be willing to acknowledge that there are … certain people … who really do deserve it!
I can't say who deserves what. But torment for ETERNITY? A billion years and it's gotten no shorter?
I suppose, though, my problem is as much the WHY as the what. They're not being tormented, allegedly, for their sins. The thing that sends you to Hell, so they say, is a lack of "faith," a failure to subscribe to their religion. You can have committed any number of awful sins, but so long as you get right with their religion (confess with thy mouth, &ct.) you get a pass.
Interesting thoughts. It doesn’t even begin to open the whole “bloody sacrifice for your sins” concept. How barbaric and unnecessary that whole thing is.
I was being snarky. I actually agree with you.
Some hidden premises here. I wonder if you are aware of them?
I read your work. I'm not interested in an irrelevant ramble through a "not all theists" argument. My essay was clearly addressed at a particular position and model that you don't hold.
It's not a dissertation, it's a brief online essay.
I occurred to me when I was about 14 years old, that if there was was an omniscient, omnipotent Supreme Being watching over us, who had decided to create us, that said Being would be well aware of the situation He or She had placed us in, and being omniscient, would also be well aware of the limits of our ability to to elevate ourselves to any higher level of awareness. It seemed to me that to intentionally construct such a scenario on this lovely planet, and to expect the subjects of this experiment to somehow redeem themselves by worshiping a completely absent and unknown "Creator" would be laughable at best. All of the civilizations on this dirtball in space have created their own Creators, most of whom have been vengeful, murderous, and unassailable bullies. I am not saying that it's impossible that a Creator exists, I am only saying that if said Creator exists, they cannot reasonably expect very much from their creation.
I clicked the heart before I got halfway through. This is absolutely the BEST argument I've ever heard on this topic. Thank you.
Who was it who said that people who do good deeds so they'll get into heaven aren't good people?
"If people are good only because they fear punishment,
and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
-Albert Einstein
This is probably the most well written, cogent explanation of how evil religious idiots are that I have ever read. Thank you!!
Well said!
I think the word is "ambulatory" rather than "ambulate."
Thank you for another eloquent and insightful essay on the fallible, illogical, confounding creature known as human.
No wonder human beings are such a mess. When the very foundation of your belief system is that the ultimate good guy is ok with torture, humiliation, and demands condescending servitude, then I think it is safe to say that the resulting human behavior will be twisted beyond recognition from the real meaning of peace and love. I am grateful to have been raised an atheist. I was never forced to believe the nonsense as a kid, so today it is easy for me to see the insanity it produces. Most folks have crippling cognitive dissonance over it all.
Human beings are human beings.. the good, the bad and the ugly, no matter what their belief system. Good people will be good and bad will be bad. Always has been that way and I will bet it always will be that way in the human family.
"...many Christian fundamentalists and religious authoritarians" have no clue about whether or not what they believe is based on a shred of evidence. It's come mostly from an emotional source, not a rational one. I hesitate to use the word "stupid" but Bonhoeffer did not:
"Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one's prejudgment simply need not be believed
- in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical - and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous."
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison
That fits with today
Whenever you say "God didn't intend..." you are going to have to let go of omnipotence, omniscience, or benevolence. If your God created all this, and the rules it operates by, and knew every result in advance, then your God bears all moral responsibility if you would say that your God can do anything He wishes to do by a mere act of will. There's no getting around this problem, and you look disingenuous when you try.